Rote vs Real: A non-contest
“Malli, you shouted at Suzie, and now she’s crying. You need to say sorry.”
Suzie’s mother quickly intervenes. “Oh, I never force apologies. They don’t understand at this age, and it only encourages hypocrisy.”
I’ve heard this before, of course. The intervening mother disapproves of my draconian ways and is confident of her moral superiority. If I continue in my emotional manipulation, Malli will grow to become a moral cripple, drilled and skilled in the social forms but lacking any comprehension of the substance, of the meaning of the exchanges. A hypocrite, as Suzie’s mother would have it.
Nonsense.
Those who hold this position re: rote apologies don’t understand the agenda behind the expectation. Yes, at first the child has no idea what’s really going on. You tell the aggressor tot to say “Sorry”, and the victim chimes in, too. Clearly, no one knows what they’re doing, or why. So why bother?
We bother because the form does matter. If we wait for true empathy to emerge, we could be waiting a while. One can, however, encourage true empathy to emerge through these rote exchanges. Encouraging emotional development is not the entire reason, however. I’m not even sure it’s the primary reason to insist on rote social behaviours, not at this stage, anyway.
The basic reason is that we want these things to be reflexive. We want them to be automatic. Do we want them to be mindless and insincere? Of course not. But we do want them done!
When you drive, you put on your signal light at every turn. You don’t just put it on when there’s a car behind you. You do do it at every corner, necessary or not, because you want it to be automatic. You don’t want to have to think about it at every intersection.
Similarly, basic social interactions — please, thank you, I’m sorry, excuse me — are much more likely to occur when they’re rote.
Tone of voice matters, of course. Eye contact matters. A smile to accompany the words matters. These things take it from rote to real — but if we haven’t done it in the first place, the “real” is never going to happen! So many of these interactions have to occur in a split second. There is often not time to evaluate and consider. Just as you flick on the signal when you approach an intersection, you flick out an “excuse me” when you inadvertantly bump into someone on a crowded sidewalk.
You do it without thinking — but does that matter to the other person? No. They just want the acknowledgment of their person. Rote is fine.
So, yeah. Rote.
See, empathy takes a while to develop. Rote can be learned much sooner. In order for a skill to become automatic, though, the earlier we start, the better. It is not hypocrisy. The goal is certainly sincerity and empathy — and that will come.
When integration was occurring in the south, studies consistently showed that attitudes changed when behaviour changed. When the kids were taught about the other group, prejudice stayed strong. When the kids were thrown together in classrooms, prejudices broke down. (Not all at once, and not easily, perhaps, but it started.)
Attitudes follow actions. The real will grow out of the rote.
You want an empathetic kid? Encourage them to act like they are. It’s not hypocrisy, it’s training. If it’s rote during toddlerhood, it’ll be real by school age, and automatic all their lives long.
And that, my friends, is a good thing.
I completely agree. Jeffrey is two. He’s not please and thank you-ing his way through life but we’re pushing him at every turn to make it automatic.
Also, I have a friend whose daughter is 9 and occasionally sees a therapist for behavioral issues and to help the family know how to better cope. The therapist told them that every time she needs to apologize to her brother or whomever that it needs to be genuine. She is old enough to realize that it matters. So now, if the initial apology is insincere? They make her leave the room, re-enter and apologize again. This continues until she gives something genuine.
A little extreme? exhausting for the parents? Maybe. But it’s also teaching her that her words and actions have consequences and that just as she wants apologies to her to be genuine, hers should be genuine in return.
Extreme? I don’t think so at all. The only unusual part of that scene is the age of the child. Nine is a bit old for it — but if it’s a lesson she hasn’t yet learned, it’s a reasonable enough way to proceed. That repetition till they get it right? It’s a common technique by teachers, taught in teacher’s college.
When I taught, I once took over an unruly class from a teacher on mat. leave. This group created great havoc whenever we walked from our room through the school — to the gym, say, or in from recess. So one day, when we were on our way to gym, which they loved, they were advised as to the expectations, and then, when they blew it two seconds out of the door, back we went. Lined up a second time, and tried it once more. It took them about 10 minutes — once we got to within ten feet of the gym door — to realize this wasn’t fun, this wasn’t funny, and they were going to lose out. That was the turning point.
At two, Jeffrey is normal in that it’s not yet automatic. But with consistent training, he’ll get that way, and be the kind of kid people like to be around. (Even MORE than he is ALREADY, of course!!)
Thank you once again, Mary. I had a brief conversation about this very topic last week. “other mom” thinks I’m insane for making my 22 month old apologize to his nine month old sister. I can live with that.
The 9-month-old doesn’t care yet, but she is still a human being deserving of respect, and the time will come when she does care. It’s the principle of the thing, the ability to take the long view. So of course he must apologize to her, just as, when she’s old enough, she will learn to apologize to him!
Apparently, I’m in your camp as well. The other day, my 4 year old daughter farted while sitting on someone’s lap. I asked her “Where’s your manners?” expecting an “excuse me” or even “I’m sorry.” I got it, but also heard my almost 2 year old chime up with “Thank you mama”. Rote indeed.
Bwah-ha. The rote can cut both ways. When my eldest was three and a bit, someone at playgroup handed her a snack. She didn’t say ‘thank you’! “Haley, where are your manners?” I asked, in some genuine surprise. She was equally surprised. “But mama, you didn’t say ‘What do you say?’!” At which point I realized perhaps I’d been too predictable in my prompting… heh.
I’m with you – we need to teach them that it’s the done thing, and they’ll get to the reason. Meanwhile, it still helps smooth things, even if they don’t get it yet. Even now, when Pumpkinpie sometimes says it by force and not becuase she means it – because sometimes she DOESN”T mean it, even though sometimes she does, I still think it’s important for her to know she has to say it. It helps the other person feel slightly less injured.
Which brings us to the other half of the equation: the feelings of the other party. It doesn’t always matter to the other guy if the social interaction is entirely sincere — sometimes just the acknowledgement is sufficient. Either way, your child is learning that their behaviour affects someone else. A tough lesson even for some adults, so we’d best start young!
I always feel that it at least indicates to my son that there was an event for which he must face consequences. If I don’t force an apology, how will he learn which things require an apology?
How will he, indeed? It’s funny. People seem to have very high expectations on the one hand: “My child will some day magically intuit emotional complexities I have not bothered to teach him/her”; and very low expectations on the other: “My child is too immature to even be taught that he has caused someone else unhappiness.” Whereas I think such awareness is rarely native in a very young child, but its development can be taught/encouraged — and the education should begin as soon as possible, because it’s a complex lesson.
Wow. Not being a parent, I didn’t even realize there were people who believe as Suzie’s mom does.
I’m curious about how you handled it with her, and whether you would’ve handled it differently if it had been the offender’s parent standing there instead of the injured kid’s parent.
Well, in all honesty? There was no “Suzie’s mother” today. There have been in the past, though, and I was using the example to draw you all into the post. Creative license, don’t you know. With that kind of parent, I explain that my policy is the child apologizes, and, unless they bodily haul their child away, I continue. Because I’m old and opinionated and stubborn…
If it’s the other child who should be apologizing, but is not being encouraged to? That’s much harder. You can’t force an apology from someone else’s child, particularly if the parent is actively running interference. What I try to do is get at least one quick sentence out to the other child, explaining the situation just as I did to Malli in the example I gave. “When you did X, it made my child feel Y.” If the parent takes offense at that? Well, tough. Those are just the facts, and it is not my job to aid and abet you as you attempt to raise a conscience-free child.
Wow. I wish more people I knew turned on their turn signal by rote…even if it’s not ’sincere’.
BWAH-hahaha… Yeah. The world needs more ‘insincere’ good drivers.
I’m with you too. On the other hand, I’m trying to teach my children the difference between “I apologize” and “I empathize” for which our language just uses “I’m sorry”. I think kids hate the word because they feel it implies guilt. We need to be sure they know they can say “I’m sorry that happened to you” or “I’m sorry for doing that to you” so they don’t feel misunderstood. Not that toddlers would get that yet!
You know, when I consider what you say, I realize that I don’t use “I’m sorry” for empathy. I say “That’s too bad”, or “You must be so frustrated!”, “That’s AWFUL!”, or “How exasperating!” I don’t say “I’m sorry” when I wasn’t responsible. So I guess that’s what I’ve taught my children, without even thinking about it. “I’m sorry” is reserved for harm/distress caused another (whether deliberate or inadvertant).
My 2.5yo daughter handed me a pretzel from her snack yesterday. I took it, and she said, “Now you say thank you.” So I said thank you, and she said “welcome.” So who’s training who?
I say this means you have done a superbe job in your training! Well done!
To respond to Jill’s comment – it’s true. I say “sorry” all the time, and often it just mean empathy. To me, that’s rote, so, for example, my husband will tell me about a problem he had, I’ll say, “I’m sorry.” But then he’ll snap back, “it wasn’t *your* fault.” Well, I know that, I’m just sorry it happened. You’re right, Jill, there ought to be two words. I wonder if other languages make the distinction?
The distinction that could be made in that situation could be to say, “Oh, that must be upsetting [or "exasperating", or "maddening", or whatever adjective seems to fit]. That way, you empathize without sounding as if you’re taking responsibility for whatever happened.
I’ve not encountered a parent yet that discouraged apologies. But I guess it takes all kinds. I agree with you, encouraging such actions does help for future development. I also think it makes the children stop and think, however briefly, about their actions.
It does not often come naturally to a very young child to see that their actions have an effect on another person. They see things from their own perspective: if it was funny for them, it was funny! Why is that other kid yelling like that?? If we as parents can get them to “stop and think about their actions”, we should do so.”
In the “Becoming Childwise” series (I forget the author), he says the child should say “I’m sorry” if they’ve done something by accident. If they’ve done something wrong on purpose, or should know better, they should ask the other person to “forgive them.” Just a thought…
I’ve heard this distinction before; I’ve even used it in the past. I’m not entirely comfortable with it, however, because it puts the aggrieved party in the position of having to accept the apology on the spot. If they’re not ready to forgive, if they need a little time to recover from the offence, can they say “no”, or does that make them the ‘bad guy’ (for lack of a better term)?
A simple offense can be forgiven quickly. A more hurtful offense might take some time to recover from, not because of vengefulness, but just because of the level of injury, and the offender has to accept that. They can’t go running to a parent, saying “Johnny won’t forgive me!!”, and have poor Johnny reprimanded.
I’ve never met another parent who felt like Suzie’s mother, but as a teacher, I had a principal who felt that way. He saw no point in having a student write a letter of apology to me after a major offense in the classroom. One of the many reasons I could not wait to leave the school.
You writhed under the injustice of that principal’s misguided perspective, his lack of support for you, and rightly so! Children respond no differently when the same injustice happens to them, though they may not be able to express their feelings. Their lack of innate empathy means they need to be taught that others feel the same way when it happens to them. Empathy takes a while to develop, but it develops more quickly when it’s supported, encourage, and taught.
I agree, I agree, I agree! And I’m heartily glad for parents, care providers and teachers like you!
My husband once said, after witnessing a friend eating a meal with her children (“Put your napkin in your lap. Here’s your milk — what do you say? Sit up straight. You just bumped your sister — what do you say? Here is your dessert — what do you say? Cover your mouth when you cough — and what do you say? What do you say? What do you say?”) that when we have children, our dinner table would not be so cluttered with instructions and nagging. My eyebrows hit my hairline, and we had a very long, multi-session discussion about our diverging child-rearing philosophies.
I won the top service award at a company for two years running, and I attribute a lot of that to the fact that many complainers simply wanted to hear someone — anyone — say, upon hearing their tirades, “I’m so sorry!” Once they heard the magic words, they were able to calm down and talk rationally, and I was usually able to solve their problems.
Thank you, Mom and Dad!
Aren’t you glad you had that discussion before you started having children?? In fact, I understand his reaction: it can seem dreary in the extreme, listening to all that training going on. The thing is, if you’d gone to dinner with that same family six months later, you’d probably have found the frequency of reminders greatly reduced, and six months after that, pretty much gone. Progress happens! A lot of parenting is repetition, and it IS boring and tedious, no doubt about it — which is why it’s important for parents to have adult-only times, too!
So maybe you and your husband can agree that while this kind of on-the-job training is a necessity of parenting, you will also ensure that you have a night a week, or a half-day on weekends — something! — scheduled in for just the two of you, to be grown-ups without the “clutter” (good word!) of parental reminders and instructions.
“Malli, you shouted at Suzie, and now she’s crying. You need to say sorry.”
Absolutely. Kids need to learn that purposefully causing someone distress requires an apology…even if they don’t yet understand why. And if someone is there to point out the co-relation when it happens to them, kids get it pretty quick.
But what of when it’s not on purpose? Well, we’ve always gone for the “excuse me, pardon me or oops” responses.
We use “I’m sorry” for harm/distress we cause to another, regardless of whether it was deliberate or accidental. There is a nuance here that the language isn’t encompassing, that’s true, but at this stage, a simple “You hurt someone, you say sorry” suffices. When they are older, I work on the nuance.
Other families will resolve this differently, and that’s fine. The key is to a) take responsibility for your own actions and b) acknowledge their effects on someone else. How we manage that may vary, but if those key issues are addressed, consideration and empathy are being taught: which is really what a ’sorry’ (or a ‘pardon me’) is all about!
I was one of those parents that didn’t think making her child say sorry made sense….he was too young to understand what it meant. WELL….He is now 15 and still won’t say sorry to his brothers or me . He always has an excuse as to why it happend. His 2 younger (12,9) brothers on the other hand (who I made say sorry when they were young…not sure what changed my mind) always say sorry…and usually mean it.
So, yes, I absolutely agree, young children should be accountable. …and it’s amazing that even when they are only 2, they will stop screaming bloody murder when they hear that “I’m sorry”.
Small children are self-centered, it’s true, but they also do care about other people. These two attributes are in tension, and if we’re wise parents, we will do what we can to encourage the growth of the caring part. Whatever prompted you to change your tactics after child #1 was a good parental decision. Good for you, and I hope that the bumps and bruises of life will teach your eldest the value of a sincere apology! Don’t give up on him yet: 15 is still young enough to learn.
Watching toddler twins grow up together I can absolutely guarantee that they can understand empathy. At least once a week, I’ll witness one of the kids comforting the other. When they hit or make the other cry, we do a time out and then they have to say sorry. They know that they’ve done wrong and saying sorry makes it better.
Practice makes perfect in my opinion.
“Practice makes perfect.” Exactly. Their empathy may be un-nuanced at first, but it will develop subtlety, in time and with practice. If we don’t have them practice these things, how will they ever learn them?
Ahhhh. This is a regular discussion in my house, when certain friends come over. They agree with Suzie. I agree with Mary. The “proof” that I am right?
Last visit, their son smashed a light fixture in my daughter’s room. (They are 5). (Yes, we disagree about MANY things. Like throwing a ball at the light.) He said it was an accident, and his folks were fine, and consoled him because the loud noise of the breaking glass upset him. My daughter felt he should say “sorry” for smashing something in her room. A heated discussion took place, and in the end they left. My daughter still remembers when “Scott wouldn’t say sorry”. No mention of the light fixture.
Let me clarify the details here. Scott broke the light fixture. Not only does he not have to apologize, he’s consoled because the consequences of his own action startled him. Did they console your daughter, who was not only also startled, but who had a possession of hers destroyed?
And even if, for reasons which I canNOT conceive, they have decided that Scott need never take anyone’s feelings but his own into consideration, what about they, the parents? Does it not occur to them that they need to replace the item their son broke? No?
Seems they are doing their level best to create a sociopath. God help poor Scott, and I hope, for his sake, they’re not successful, but if there’s any justice, their appalling lack of conscience will bite them in the ass one day…
Good heavens.
We actually do agree with suzie’s mom to a certain extent. My husband does see it as teaching the kid to lie if they are forced to apologize for something that they are not actually sorry for doing.
However, said child often finds it extremely unpleasant to then have to go to the child he/she has wronged and is usually still angry at and confess wrong doing. You could simply say I’m sorry, and be done with it, or you can say, “I shouldn’t have pushed you over because I was angry. What I did was wrong.”
It forces them to take some responsibility for their behavior and acknowledge the injury even if the incident is too fresh for them to feel remorse. And then there are the other standard consequences for breaking rules and hurting others that we dole out.
I like your approach. “What I did was wrong” is more meaningful than “I’m sorry.” What isn’t included in my post is the debrief that follows the “I’m sorry”, where we talk about why the sorry was required. However, I love the idea of expressing that to the other child. Taking responsibility for their behaviour can be done, as you say, whether or not they’re genuinely sorry. I’m not sure I’m going to give up on teaching them the form, because rote “I’m sorry’s” have their place, but I’m absolutely going to add the acknowledging what they did and that it was wrong. Very nice. Thank you!
Good point. I can even remember when my own empathy developed and it seemed to come on very suddenly. But good encouragment can really help. You have a tough job but a very important one.
Just re-reading some of the comments, and felt the need for another response. For those who don’t believe in teaching “I’m sorry” because the child would be “lying” or insincere…don’t we teach all sorts of other social behaviors that aren’t necessarily “truth” or sincere?
We say “how are you?” when we couldn’t care less how the other person really is. We say “fine, thank you” in response to being asked how we are, even if the answer is “well, I have this headache, and I wish I’d managed to slip away before you saw me, and I’m a little gassy today…”
We say variations of “take care!” when we take our leave of someone, even if honestly we’d rather they tripped and stubbed their toe. We say “goodbye,” which means literally “God be with ye,” regardless of whether we mean (or believe!) that.
We nudge our children to “say thank you to Grandma,” even if it’s for an unwanted toy or a really hideous sweater. That’s “forcing a lie” since the child doesn’t feel thankful or grateful at ALL…but it’s important that the child express that nonexistent gratitude to Grandma.
I’m not quite sure how making a child say “I’m sorry” is forcing a lie, but making a child say “I was wrong” if he or she does not believe that what he or she did was wrong is not forcing a lie? (However, I really do like the approach of having a child say “I shouldn’t have ______. What I did was wrong.”)
Certain social insincerities and untruths are important to learn at an early age. Hopefully, the child in question will grow up to truly care “how you are” and to mean his or her apologies…but whether they mean it or not, knowing that one must SAY such things is very important.